?> An Tir Heralds: Online System for Commentary and Response

 An Tir College of Heralds 
Online System for Commentary and Response

Site News
Issues/Bugs List

OSCAR Tutorial

Read ILs

RFS

Prec

AH

Sub Status

Name:

Password:

Create Account
(You do not need to do this unless you are a commenting herald -- you can read the ILs without an account)

Forgot your password?
Contact Blue Anchor Herald for help. Her address is here.

[ Site News | Issues/Bugs List | OSCAR Tutorial | Read ILs | RFS | Prec | AH | Sub Status ]

An Tir IL dated 2011-11-29 (Jump to Submissions)

Unto Anthony Black Lion, Oddr Lions Blood, Rhieinwyldd Boar and the An Tir College of Heralds does Elizabeth Sable Chime send greetings;

This letter has been written on behalf of Boar Pursuivant, who rightfully is working on end-of-term graduate school work. We return you to your regular letter next month!

Commentary on this letter is due JANUARY 20.

FROM LIONS BLOOD

Unto the members of the An Tir College of Heralds, and to all those who labor on matters of heraldry, may you know peace and warmth this winter season.

After consideration of our archival obligations, and discussion with several members of the College, I have chosen to revise the number of copies of armory forms to meet the minimums imposed by Laurel. The new requirements are:

Names:

- 2 copies of the submission form

- 2 copies of documentation

Armory:

- 3 colored copies of the submission form

- 1 uncolored copy of the submission form

- 3 copies of documentation

As I write this, there is an outstanding question regarding the copies of armory documentation that are required. If that changes, then I'll make an announcement to that effect.

I am making arrangements to change the submission forms to indicate the An Tir Heralds website as the source for submission instructions. I will make an announcement when the change to the forms actually happens.

We had a successful meeting graciously hosted by the shire of Rivers Bend, and my thanks to Amia Turner -- autocrat of the event -- as well as to Gerald and Cristiana de Huntington, who donated space and internet access in the building for our use.

In general, I'm happy to do a road show. I'm attempting to schedule meetings to fall on the weekend at least one full calendar week before the end of the month. If you have an event with access to power, internet, and (if possible) a computer projector or equivalent, feel free to drop me an email and we can talk.

Upcoming meetings:

The November IL will be discussed Sunday, 18 Dec, at my home in Aquaterra, starting at noon.

The December IL (this letter) will be discussed Sunday, 22 Jan, also at my home starting at noon.

Please contact me if you plan to attend, so I can ensure enough seating and snacks.

Oddr mjĒ«ksiglandi

Lions Blood Herald

LAUREL ACTIONS

The following is excerpted from the September 2011 Cover Letter

From Pelican: A Proposal for Byname Presumption

This month we were asked to consider whether the name Isaac Masters could be registered. The name Masters is not directly a claim to be a master; names formed with the possessive -s are generally patronymic in origin (making this equivalent to Masterson). This name is pended for further discussion of the issue of what sorts of bynames should be considered presumptuous. Current precedent is mixed and somewhat contradictory; some names that are derived from (but not identical to) a title have been allowed, while others have been returned. However, having looked over most of the relevant precedents, we believe we see a pattern for what has been considered allowable and what presumptuous. Therefore, we would like discussion on the following proposal.

We allow the registration of given names that are identical to titles when those names are found in period and they are used in a context that is not a claim to rank. This seems to match the rulings on bynames. Bynames of this sort generally are allowed when they are attested as period bynames, but not when they are constructed (following patterns of types of bynames). They are allowed when they are used by people who have no particular claim to rank, but not when they are used only by those who have a rank (so that Fitzroy, which becomes broadly used as a surname, does not imply that you yourself are the son of any king; likewise, Visconti does not imply that you are close kin to a viscount). Finally, they are allowed when the name itself is not a direct claim to rank. So Visconte would not be allowed, but Visconti would, and Master would not be allowed, but Masters would.

A byname that met all three of these criteria (is not a direct claim to rank, is used by people who have no particular rank, and are attested to period) would be registerable, while a byname that does not would generally be considered to create the appearance of a presumption of rank.

The combination of bynames would be considered in the same way: adding a locative element after a byname like Visconti would not be presumptuous, as Visconti da Firenze is not a claim to be the viscount of Florence (that'd be Visconte di Frenze).

From Pelican: Some Name Resources (a series)

As I talked about Gaelic and Anglicized Irish names back in October of 2010, we're ready to move on to Welsh. The most important thing you need to know about what we know about Welsh names in the SCA is a name: Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn. Tangwystyl has been doing research on Welsh names since the 1980s. And if you go to the section on Welsh, Breton, and Brythonic Names at the Academy of Saint Gabriel Library (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/pceltic.shtml), you'll discover that she's written more articles about the names of this area than every other writer combined. A few of her print articles are now considered outdated (even by her; especially by her), such as the articles appearing in A Welsh Miscellany, CA 66. It was published nearly 20 years ago, and should not be used as documentation. The reason is simple: it combines legendary early names with late period names, all written using 20th century spellings. This matters for two reasons. While we'll register an early Welsh name, we will not register it in spellings found only in the 20th century. In fact, we will not register names in spellings that aren't found in period from any language. Second, we require names to follow certain rules for temporal compatibility, so we need to know whether a name is used in the 6th century or the 16th century.

So, what do you need to know about Welsh, other than those articles? First, the biggest issue about Welsh is the issue of orthography, how names are written down. Modern Welsh spelling (keep thinking orthography, for us technical folks) is very different from medieval Welsh spellings; for most of the Middle Ages, dd and rh do not appear. Their sounds are represented in writing by d and r. By the sixteenth century, something like modern Welsh spelling is beginning to appear. So, names that appear today as Dafydd and Rhys appear in Welsh contexts during the Middle Ages as David (or Davyd) and Res (or Rys/Ris). It's only very close to 1600 that spellings like the modern ones become at all common. One good source to look at medieval Welsh spellings is "Welsh Prose: 1350-1425" (http://www.rhyddiaithganoloesol.caerdydd.ac.uk/en/). So if you want a name that looks like modern Welsh names, you need to aim for late period. Authenticity requests for the 13th century will create names that look very different than modern Welsh. Names that had fallen out of use by the 16th century (even if they were revived in modern times) often simply cannot be registered in their modern spellings.

The situation of reconstructing spellings is made more complicated by the fact that some of our best records for Welsh names are created by English writers, who often are unfamiliar with the Welsh language and so wind up mangling Welsh names. Others are Latinized, and so use Latin spelling conventions to render names. Thus, sometimes the documentary forms we have for names do not reflect the Welsh of that time. Of course, we'll register the Anglicized or Latinized forms of Welsh names, even in combination or combined with Welsh spellings (though we require each given name or byname to match internally). If you want to create Welsh forms of names only documented in English or Latinized forms, we can accept evidence of Welsh spellings of words with similar sounds from the same time period to reconstruct Welsh spellings from that time. But this is tricky and probably should only be done with the help of an expert.

From Wreath: Revisiting Maintained and Sustained Charges Yet Again

This month we were asked to consider a device for Sarah de Warenne in which one of the primary charges, a lion, is holding another charge, in this case a halberd. Under current precedent, whether a charge is a sustained or maintained charge is determined by a comparison of the longest dimensions of the charge and the charge touching it.

In this specific case, as the longest dimension of the halberd is equal to the longest dimension of the lion holding it, the halberd is a sustained charge and thus there are three types of charges in the primary charge group: a violation of section VIII.1.a of the Rules for submission, Armorial Simplicity, which requires that "three or more types of charges should not be used in the same group."

However, the visual weight of the halberd in this device strongly suggests that it should be considered a maintained charge. Precedent holds that "Our practice has been to ignore maintained charges when defining a device as simple armory for the purposes of this rule and RfS X.2. [Elise l'Éstrange, 05-2005, A-An Tir]" If the halberd is a maintained charge, then the device does not violate the armorial simplicity rule, and may be registered.

We therefore invite commenters to discuss modifying our standards on defining maintained and sustained charges, taking into account the following points:

  • maintained charges currently do not count for difference

  • sustained charges are currently considered an equal member of the charge group they are in

  • we do not currently grant difference between conjoined and non-conjoined charges of the same weight (sustained vs non-sustained but in the same charge group); however we currently recognize a distinction between a primary charge holding a maintained charge and a primary charge with a secondary charge nearby, even of the smaller charges are the same type and size

  • Laurel registered the following items in September 2011:

    Aquaterra, Barony of. Badge for the Baronial War Unit. (Fieldless) A bear rampant sable scaly Or.

    Baronial War Unit is a generic identifier.

    Aquaterra, Barony of. Badge for the Baronial Sergeantry. (Fieldless) An arming buckle vert.</br>

    Baronial Sergeantry is a generic identifier.

    This badge is not in conflict with the badge of Alicia le Wilfulle, (Fieldless) A mascle vert. There is one CD for fieldlessness, and at least a CD between a mascle and a buckle, as both are period heraldic charges which have not been demonstrated as being interchangeable in period heraldry.

    Azizah bint Rustam. Device. Per bend sinister sable and paly wavy gules and argent, a calygreyhound rampant guardant argent and a crescent sable.

    Gryffyth ap Madyn. Device. Azure, a dolphin urinant maintaining in its mouth an arrow and in chief three harps Or.

    Isabeau of Kaldor Ness. Holding name and device (see RETURNS for name). Per fess azure and vert, a unicorn passant argent charged on the shoulder with a mullet gules.

    Submitted under the name Isabeau la petite.

    John de Rokyngham. Badge. (Fieldless) A cross patonce Or surmounted by a roundel quarterly argent and gules.

    Joye de Beumund. Name and device. Argent, on a bend cotised vert three martlets bendwise argent.

    Nice 13th century English name!

    This device is not in conflict with the device of Cara of Kirriemuir, Argent, on a bend between two olive branches bendwise vert, a dove volant, wings addorsed, argent. There is one CD for the change in type of the secondary charges. The default orientation for animate charges not affronty or displayed on a bend is bendwise sinister; in other words, they are climbing upwards along the bend. Joye's martlets are turned 90 degrees from the default, and Cara's dove is somewhere between palewise and the default bendwise sinister. Thus there is another CD for the changes in number and orientation to the tertiary charges.

    Mericke de Ross. Name and device. Per bend wavy argent and azure, a roundel and a wolf sejant ululant counterchanged.

    Please advise the submitter to draw deeper, more prominent, waves on the line of division.

    There is a step from period practice for the use of the non-period ululant posture.

    Radmund of Midloe Grange. Name.

    Submitted as Radmund of Midloe Grange, the name was changed by kingdom to Radmund of Middelho to match the dated forms they could find. Luckily, Green Staff was able to find Midloe in a 1613 heraldic visitation (The visitation of the county of Huntingdon). Midloe Grange can be constructed as a compound placename, created by adding a family name to an existing placename. Grange is found as a byname from the 13th century onwards (Reaney and Wilson s.n. Grange), which can be added to the documented placename Midloe. Bynames were constructed from compound placenames; therefore, we can restore the byname to the submitted form.

    Viktor Kladivo. Name and device. Per chevron gules and sable, an owl's head cabossed and in chief three roundels argent.

    The submitter requested authenticity for 15th-16th century Bohemia. This name does not meet that request. The byname is Czech and commenters could not find the given name in a Czech context. The given name is found in Polish, which was spoken in nearby areas, but a byname of this meaning in Polish would look completely different. The name is, however, registerable as submitted. Therefore we are registering it with no change.

    The combination of a Polish given name and a Czech byname is a step from period practice.

    Wulfgar Bradax. Name and device. Gyronny arrondi ermine and sable, a bordure gules bezanty.

    Appearing on the letter of intent as Wulfgar Bradaxe, the name appeared on the forms both in this spelling and as Wulfgar Bradax. Communication with the submitter indicated that he preferred the spelling Bradax; we have made that change in order to meet the submitter's request.

    This name mixes an Old English given name and a Middle English byname; this is a step from period practice.

    Please advise the submitter to draw fewer and larger ermine spots.

    Laurel returned the following items for further work in September 2011:

    Isabeau la petite. Name.

    Unfortunately, this name conflicts with Ysabeau Petit, registered in March of this year.

    Her device has been registered under the holding name Isabeau of Kaldor Ness.

    LIONS BLOOD ACTIONS

    These items are from the October 2011 Internal Letter of Intent.

    The following items have been forwarded to Laurel and are tentatively scheduled to be decided on in February 2012:

    Alan ap Neel. New Badge.

    (Fieldless) On a dragon's head couped gules, a pheon argent.

    Eilaf Spiælbodhason. New Name.

    The byname was submitted as Spjalboðason. It has been changed to the forwarded form to meet the request for Swedish/Danish authenticity.

    Elianor la Bergiere. New Name Change & New Device Change.

    Per chevron embattled per pale vert and sable and argent, two talbots passant respectant argent and an oak tree blasted and eradicated sable.

    The byname was submitted as le Bergiere. It has been changed to the forwarded form to make the gender consistent throughout.

    Elianor la Bergiere. New Badge.

    (Fieldless) An oak tree blasted and eradicated sable the trunk surmounted by a talbot passant argent.

    Elianor la Bergiere. New Badge.

    (Fieldless) A hunting horn pierced at the rings by an arrow argent.

    Liutgard of Luxeuil. New Name Change & New Badge.

    (Fieldless) Issuant from a heart gules a stag's attire Or

    Lucrezia Helena Zancani. New Name Change. (see RETURNS for device)

    Onóra inghean Chormaic. New Device Change.

    Argent, a phoenix purpure and on a chief azure, three lilies Or

    Symmonne Deccarrete de Villette. New Badge.

    (Fieldless) A domestic cat statant reguardant tail sufflexed azure.

    The following items have been returned for further work:

    Lucrezia Helena Zancani. New Device.

    Sable, a unicorn passant and a tree fesswise, in chief three mullets of eight points argent, and a base wavy, barry wavy argent and azure

    This device is returned for violation of RfS VIII.4.a, Pictoral Design: "Design elements should not be combined to create a picture of a scene or landscape. For example, combining a field divided per fess wavy azure and Or with a sun and three triangles Or, as well as a camel and two palm trees proper to depict the Nile Valley would not be acceptable." In addition, the unicorn is not drawn in a medieval heraldic posture (pascuant, used by the submitter, is a modern posture) and is missing the traditional elements associated with the heraldic unicorn: a beard, a lion's tail and cloven hooves. As well, the elements in chief are drawn as compass stars as opposed to mullets and the waves of the base are too shallow. The submitter is advised to contact a herald for help with redesigning and redrawing this device before resubmission.

    The following items have been pended until additional/updated paperwork is received:

    Volk the Grey. New Device.

    Vert, a wolf ululant and four mullets of five points and in chief three mullets of five points, argent

    This device arrived without a name submission and the name is not currently registered. The submitter was contacted and the name appears on the November 2011 Internal Letter of Intent. The device is thereby pended until the name is decided.

    1: Anne Midwinter - New Name

    • Submitter desires a female name.
    • No major changes.
    • Meaning (middle of winter) most important.

    The submitter's branch is Dragon's Mist.

    The following is quoted from the documentation section of the form:

    Anne found in Talan Gwynek's (Brian Scott) article at the s-gabriel.org site "Feminine Given Names in A Dictionary of English Surnames" under sn Ann. Anne - 1327 Dambell

    Midwinter - Reaney & Wilson sn Midwinter John Midwinter c. 1248

    Dragon's Mist - branch name registered Nov 1992 as Dragon's Mist, Shire of

    If Anne Midwinter is considered to conflict Anne de Winter submitted on Lochac's May LoI, submitter will accept adding "of Dragon's Mist"

    Sable Chime notes: "Feminine Names in DES" can be found at http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/reaneyintro.html; the name citation for Anne is at http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/reaneyAG.html.

    2: Dýrfinna helluflagi - New Name

    • Meaning (surname meaning suprise attack) most important.

    The submitter's branch is Dragon's Mist.

    The following is quoted from the documentation section of the form:

    Dýrfinna - Geirr Bassi s.n. Dyggvi

    helluflagi - Geirr Bassi - nickname meaning "suprise attack"

    3: Edmund Halliday - Resub Device

    Or semy of trefoil knots inverted azure, a crane close contourny sable within an orle vert

    The submitter's name was registered in April 2011 via An Tir.

    <br /><br />

    The submitter's previous submission of the same blazon was returned in April 2011 by Laurel for the following:

    This device is returned for a redraw. The strewn charges are not recognizable heraldic charges. Trefoil knots would be interlaced and have rounded ends, as seen at http://www.aeheralds.net/Links/AE_Traceable_Art/IndivPDFs/Knot_trefoil_2.pdf. Triquetras inverted would be interlaced, as seen at http://www.aeheralds.net/Links/AE_Traceable_Art/IndivPDFs/Triquetra.pdf. It was suggested that we could blazon these as three leaves conjoined in pall Or fimbriated azure. However, strewn charges are only considered to be "in the center of the design" when the strewn charges are the primary charge group.

    4: Feradach MacTralin MecDomongart - New Name

    • Submitter desires a male name.
    • No major changes.
    • Language most important.
    • Culture most important.

    The submitter's branch is Glyn Dwfn.

    The following is quoted from the documentation section of the form:

    I am to be a 12th century Gaelic Scottish Highlander. The name is drawn from "A Simple Guide to Constructing 12th Century Scottish Gaelic Names" from the official SCA Heralds website. The construction uses a double patronymic byname. The second name, Domongart, does not list a genitive and so I used the nominative case. If this is unregisterable I will allow a major change to using MecCennedig as the third part. This is the only major change I will accept.

    Sable Chime notes: The cited article can be found here, http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/names/simplescotgaelicnames12.htm, and was written by Sharon L. Krossa.

    4: Feradach MacTralin MecDomongart - New Device

    Per chevron gules and sable, a snake coiled erect argent, a sword bendwise sinister dexter-chief, a glaive bendwise sinister-chief Or

    5: Kreszentia of Cimbri - New Name

    • Submitter desires a female name.
    • Client requests authenticity for German - Norse.
    • Meaning (would like it to mean grow, thrive, spring up) most important.

    The submitter's branch is Fire Mountain Keep.

    The following is quoted from the documentation section of the form:

    20000names.com

    German - Latin form of Creszentia

    means - to spring up, grow, thrive

    Cimbri = www.bergbook.com - Antique maps of general maps

    Antique German - Weigel Christoph - 1720-40

    5: Kreszentia of Cimbri - New Device

    Or within a wingless, legless dragon in annulo heart-shaped chief to head purpure, breathing water proper, 1 goutty proper, A lilly Azure slipped

    The blazon has been left as provided by the submitter.

    The submitter also included the following note:

    Note: If the heart shape is a problem, then make it into a full circle to pass.

    6: Kylea - New Name

    • Submitter desires a female name.
    • Sound most important.

    The submitter's branch is Fire Mountain Keep.

    The following is quoted from the documentation section of the form:

    Kylea - Gaelic origin

    feminine from Kyle

    1. http://www.babynamespeaia.com/meaning/kylea

    2. www.babyhold.com/list/gaelic_baby_names/kylea/details

    6: Kylea - New Device

    Or, phoenix head to sinister body purpure with wings and tail feathers proper (flames) holding a jasmine purpure sinister surrounded by flames slipped

    7: Wulfhrafn of Cimbri - New Name

    • Submitter desires a male name.
    • Meaning (wolf-raven/Germanic) most important.

    The submitter's branch is Fire Mountain Keep.

    The following is quoted from the documentation section of the form:

    20000names.com

    Wulf = German form for wolf

    hrafn = Icelandic form for raven

    of Cimbri = www.bergbook.com

    Antique maps of general maps

    Antique Germany - Weigel, Christoph - 1720-40

    7: Wulfhrafn of Cimbri - New Device

    Per bend sinister sable and Or, an arrow inverted bendwise sinister gules wolfhead erased argent and a raven close bendwise sinister sable

    Thus concludes the December 2011 Internal Letter of Intent.

    Written this twenty-ninth day of November, AS 46,

    Elizabeth Turner de Carlisle

    Sable Chime Herald

    An Tir OSCAR counts: 6 New Names, 4 New Devices. This gives 10 new items. Resub counts: 1 Resub Device. This is a total of 1 resubmission on this letter, for a total of 11 actions.

    [ Site News | Issues/Bugs List | OSCAR Tutorial | Read ILs | RFS | Prec | AH | Sub Status ]

    OSCAR Software Copyright © 2005, 2006, Lewis Tanzos